ATWT Discussion Group

Topic: Revisiting a topic; Backing a candidate

See, what happens when I have to work on a Saturday night. I found the personal topics board.

A few months ago Mary was justifibly pissed that people assumed white people who didn't back Obama were racist but people who supported him because he was black weren't. (I think I got that right). Mandi, pointed out that as an AA she knew people who were voting for him solely because he's black and she was a Hillary supporter. (I'm AA and my sister still hasn't gotten over Hillary's defeat. She insist that it proves America is more sexist than it is racist.)

Well, that got me to thinking. First, there are a gazillion one issue voters. There are people who will vote for McCain soley because he's ex-military. There are people who only vote pro-life. (It seems they're much more focused than pro-choice people.) There are people who vote their party regardless of qualifications. And as there will be people who will vote for Obama because he's black, what's not being discussed is the real elephant in the room, the people who are voting for McCain soley because he's white.

But what I'm as insulted by as Mary is the assumption being made that AA's who vote for Obama are doing so just because of his race. There are lots of AAs who could have run for president, Condoleezza Rice for example, who I don't believe the black community would have supported. She's out of touch with the average AA. AAs overwhelmingly didn't vote for Jesse Jackson and it barely registered with some of us that Al Sharpton was running. They had not business being president and most people knew it. I live in a majority-AA city where our AA mayor keeps getting re-elected because he's AA. It drives me nuts because I truly can't stand the man. If I could afford it I'd move. At the same time we AAs have elected a white congressman who has beat out unqualified black people for the job.

That being said, I am not ashamed to admitt that is is thrilling to be able to vote for a highly qualified African-American for president. He and I are about the same age (I'm a few months older) and when we were born there still were in my hometown white only signs, segregated bathrooms, water fountains and "Negros-only Day" at the city zoo. (We got to go on Thursdays.) I expected to live to see a black president, but not for a long, long time. I don't know if white people can really understand where I'm coming from or how important casting this single vote is for me, even if Obama loses. But I hope you can. The fact that he's black is a big deal. But it wouldn't have been enough to get him this far if millions of people, both black and white, hadn't felt he was ready for the job.

I lived in the south in the early 60's. My school was segregated although I was too young to even understand what that meant.  I don't recall really seeing any black children until I went up North for the summer and my grandmother joked that those kids were REALLY tan.  Even at a young age, that sounded wrong to me. I loved my grandmother dearly, but always felt she needed to grow a lot socially.  The things her mother taught her were too ingrained, I suppose.

I think it's terribly exciting that Barack Obama is running for President.  Certainly he's got the best chance of any past black candidate to be elected. I can remember years ago, there was a buzz that Julian Bond had a big future in national politics.  That never happened, but he was the first black man I can recall, that had moved into the political arena and became known.

At the same time, I have yet to be convinced that Barack Obama will be the saviour of our country.  I think some people are voting for him because he's NOT a Republican, just as there may be people voting for him simply because he's black, or because he's young.  I'm afraid that if he is elected, every black politician following in his footsteps will be judged by what he did in the office of President. In other world, if Barack Obama can't fix this country in 4 years, it will be a long time before an AA is nominated for President again.  Of course it's not fair, but I can see that happening. 

I have 27 more days for one of these candidates to show me they are a leader.  I don't want to hear how bad their opponent is. I don't want to hear who voted against what, because we all know there are lots of valid reasons why someone would vote against a bill.  And I don't want to hear promises.  I know people will vote for candidates based on those promises - truly believing that a President can make things happen all on his own.  They will be disappointed.   I want to hear plans. I want to hear new ideas. I want to hear where these two people are going to cut spending just as we are all cutting spending on our own homes.  I haven't heard anything like this from either candidate. They just tell us things we want to hear.  They are politicians and they want our votes.

I have no idea who I'm voting for.

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And if the mess isn't cleaned up in a year or two, they'll blame it all on himl. I pray that he wins, but he's got his work cut out for him. (Mrs. B. H.)

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Posted by: Zoe
Date posted: Mon Oct 6 16:21:18 2008
Message:
Mrs BH - I do get it.  I am white and I lived in the south for a few years during the civil rights movement.  I was in grades 1-3 while there and it made a strong impression on me.  My mother actually stood up in church and called them out on their racism.  My mom was called a ''n****r lover'' and I was called the ''n****r lover's child''.  I didn't care what they called me, because I knew they were wrong to behave they way they did, even at that young age.  I hated seeing the ''whites only'' signs and hearing racist comments from literally everyone in the small town we lived in.  It was inconceivable to me that people were being treated that way because of the color of their skin.  It was foreign to me.  As an adult I lived in a place where I was in the minority.  The way I was treated was nothing compared to the what I saw as a child and after a few years, I managed to earn the respect of the people in my community, but I was still kept at arms length.  After all this time, I am still surprised to meet people who cling to their racist beliefs.  I am proud that our country has an AA in the race for President.  I know what it means to the AA community especially and it is a huge milestone for our country.  Having said that, I am not going to vote for Obama because I do not think he is the best man for the job.  Maybe down the road he will be, but I don't believe now is the time. My nature would be to vote for him because he is black just to reinforce that all men are created equal and to support that stand.  It just wouldn't be true to what I believe and who I believe to be the better candidate.  I am concerned that people will cast their vote for BO just to prove they are not racists, instead of believing him to be the best candidate.  It is a strange phenomenon that people are one-issue voters, whether it is race, gun-control, abortion, gender or because their candidate has bad teeth.  This election has presented us with so many changes.  We have always had 4 white guys (and one white woman) and now we have an African American, a woman, and two white guys.  It seems to change every day...

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Zoe, I'm glad you're surprised that people cling to their racists beliefs. Sadly, I'm not. People use the worst to justify their prejudices, ignore the good or treat it like an anomaly. Blacks with homes and jobs are the exception but the wealfare queen is the rule. Whites who will eat lunch or hang outside of work with a black person is an oddity, but Archie Bunker is the rule. It goes both ways. (Mrs. B. H.)

It is no surprise that racists cling to their racist beliefs, but I am not referring to them. I am referring to the subtle racism that is hiding in seemingly intelligent, informed people that we think we know and understand.

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Posted by: lifetimeviewer
Date posted: Mon Oct 6 13:03:15 2008
Message:

First of all, welcome to the personal topics side of ATWT!

Your post is very well written and insightful.  I do wish all voters would spend as much time and effort into researching the candidates and knowing their stance on the primary issues.  I can not for the life of me understand party loyalty and how a voter could blindly vote based on party affiliation.  Perhaps more understandable are the one issue voters; I'd prefer that people look at the entire package but I suppose is one feels so very strongly about a particular issue then they have to go with their convictions.

One question I have though is why is Obama viewed only as a black man?  He is after all, half white.  I'm not saying voting decisions should be based on color at all but I just find it interesting that Obama is almost always referred to as AA.

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I get party loyalty. I'm a woman, a feminist, an African-American and a former president of my union. I'm pro-choice, pro-environment, pro-labor and anti-death penalty. As you can guess I'm also a Democrat and if it weren't for my job I'd be really active in politics. So when the media gives us precious little to go on about candidates, I'll fall back on the party, knowing that the odds are the candidate is likely to share most of my views. (Mrs. B. H.)

Also, Obama is viewed as a black man because when he goes out in the world that's how he's treated, for better or for worse. I said somewhere below, my neighbors years ago were an interracial couple with a biracial little boy. His mother always said she didn't matter and that to the world her son is black. (Mrs. B. H.)

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Posted by: Sammie
Date posted: Mon Oct 6 12:46:19 2008
Message:

Mrs. B Harris, your post was very interesting and well done.  You must be a writer.  I agree with nearly everything you said, but there is a line that as a white person I do question it. You said ...''There are lots of AAs who could have run for president, Condoleezza Rice for example, who I don't believe the black community would have supported. She's out of touch with the average AA.'' ... Shouldn't you have said the average American?  What is the average AA expecting our president to do for them?   I believe that the Bush administration is out of touch with the middle class, or the lower middle class people, and that means all the American people no matter their color. The average AA is no different than the average American, whether it be hispanic, indian, chinese, etc..  I think C. Rice has the qualifications to be President but I would not vote for her because I want someone who is in no way connected to George Bush.

I wanted Hillary to win the primary but that was not meant to be. I was worried about Obama's lack of experience.  Then I was leaning towards McCain until he picked his running mate, and they both started unfair attacks towards Obama.  Now I am leaning towards Obama and I hope he can prove himself before election day.  I hope he can tell the American people what his plans for our country are, instead of running down his opponent.  It is too bad that a candidate has to take up most of his time defending his unfair attacks instead of telling us what he plans to do as President. 

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Thanks and good guess. I'm supposed to be writing a story for tomorrow's newspaper right now. So, in short what I meant about Rice is that when an AA reaches a certain level they're expected to be an advocate for certain issues that are unique to our community. Most of America likes to pretend that it's not the case, but the AA community is still dealing with the residue of slavery and Jim Crow, something no group in America has had to experience. Bill Clinton had that kind of sensitivity. Clarence Thomas does not. (Mrs. B. H.)

Your right. I understand now. And I agree with you about Bill Clinton and Clarence Thomas. / Sammie

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Posted by: maggimae
Date posted: Sun Oct 5 13:02:29 2008
Message:

Mrs. BH, I've read your post several times and thought about it a lot. The way I think most people choose whom to vote for is to decide what issue is most important in their lives and then find the candidate who they think will address that issue. I would like to think that's how people choose, anyway. I think it is sad that there are people who vote the straight party ticket, on either side. To me it is like taking the easy way out, rather than studying the candidates and the issues. I have to admit that, like your sister, I was deeply disappointed that Sen. Clinton did not get the nomination. And I struggle with the idea that I hold it against Sen. Obama. I know that would be wrong. He's been pretty fair to both Sen. Clinton and Sen. McCain. I do believe that Sen. Obama is qualified to be president. And if I were an African American, I would think that him being an AA (half, anyway) was just icing on the cake. I think it is perfectly fine, and even natural, that AAs would vote for him because he is an AA as long as they also feel he is qualified.

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I mentioned in a thread somewhere that sometimes a straight party ticket is the only way to vote when we the media don't give voters enough to go on. If your leanings are in line with the party that's all you can do.That being said, I have also just not voted in a race because I didn't like the Republican or the Democrat. Rather than hold my nose and vote my party I didn't vote at all. (Mrs. B. H.)

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Posted by: Brhannada^sArmour
Date posted: Sun Oct 5 1:34:28 2008
Message:
I am not an American citizen, but I wholeheartedly share your pride in being able to vote for the very well-qualified and principled Sen. Obama. It is a great accomplishment for everyone when a member of any minority earns the leadership of a country on his own merits, and it's wonderful that you can identify with his experience. However, Sen. Obama's background as the son of a white woman by a Kenyan man is atypical for black Americans. I hope to celebrate again on the day when a descendant of America's enslaved African population takes the highest office in the country.

The day will soon come when America has a President who is female. My own country, Canada, has yet to elect a female Prime Minister. (A. Kim Campbell, who was Prime Minister for a few months many years ago, was chosen within her party following the resignation of its previous leader.) North America is behind several South Asian and Southeast Asian countries that have elected female leaders, starting with Sirimavo Bandaranaike of Ceylon/Sri Lanka in 1960, the first female Prime Minister in the world. However, the remarkable achievements of these women (Mrs. Bandaranaike, her daughter Chandrika Kumaratunga, Indira Gandhi and Sonia Gandhi of India, Benazir Bhutto of Pakistan, Megawati Sukarnoputri of Indonesia, Aung San Suu Kyi of Burma, Corazon Aquino of The Philippines... I'm probably forgetting someone) typically originate from the prior political leadership of their husbands and fathers, and it is rare for a woman to become the leader of a country independently. If Hillary Clinton had triumphed in this election, I would still be waiting for the woman who reaches the top all on her own.

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Actually, a female will be elected president in 2036. I know because she is my granddaughter. She is nineteen and a senior at the University of Michigan. She spent 2 months last summer interning in the House of Commons in London./mm

How about Margaret Thatcher who was Prime Minister of Great Britain for almost 10 years also Gemany has a woman President neither of whom I believe had to rely their husbands to get elected

BA, I know what you mean about Barack not being a descendent of slaves. It makes somewhat of a difference, but I think that in many ways it's why he's so popular. Here is a man who was raised by white people but who the world sees and treats as another black man. He gets us all and is literally the embodiement of what this country is supposed to be about. And if it's any consolation, I believe they have said that Michelle's ancestors were slaves. So that sort of makes up for it. As a lifelong feminist, I would have been almost as happy to cast a vote for Hillary Clinton for president as I am for Barack. Hopefully she'll get her chance in 8 years. She'll still be younger than McCain is now. Good luck with Canada. (Mrs. B. H.)

Forgive my ignorance - but is a man any less black if he doesn't descend from slavery? When a person sees him on a street, do they not see him as black? Maybe as a white woman, this is something I will not understand. But I would think ''degrees of blackness'' don't count much to a black male when he's a victim of racial profiling. Would a police officer let him off if he found the man was not a descendent of slavery? I've heard the comments that Barack Obama isn't ''black enough'' and I find it very confusing.

Tosca, I didn't say that Barack Obama is ''less black'' or ''not black enough,'' I simply pointed out that whatever he accomplishes, he started from an atypical position for a black person in America. Correct me if I'm ignorant, but his ancestors have not been beaten down by American laws for generations, being denied nutrition, safety, education, loans and job opportunities. Most descendants of slaves have faced very different challenges in life than he has, and it would be a more meaningful milestone in the aftermath of slavery if a descendant of slaves became President rather than First Lady. Regardless, I am cheering for Sen. Obama.

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Posted by: dandyfop
Date posted: Sun Oct 5 0:46:02 2008
Message:

Well here is my thought.  Say we have 3 qualified candidates, a white guy, a white woman, and a black guy.

That white guy has not got a chance with me.  Give me the qualified woman, as long as she is not a nut job. If she is, give me the black guy. Perfect choice- qualified woman of color. Its like a double bonus, LOL.

Because this country has been around a couple of centuries and it is WAY past time we had someone besides an old white dude running this show. We need people with different experiences- it is past time to move forward.  I would definately vote based on race or sex, unapologetically. 

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I am amazed there has not been a response to your post. If this post had black written in place of the all the white, and white in place of all the black, the hateful, racist remarks would be plentiful. I hope and pray there are not very many of you out there./Sammie

Sammie, It is truly amazing that white folks can be trashed like this poster has and no one even raises their eyebrows (except us) and yet as you pointed out if the terms white and black had been transposed on the post, it would have been considered a hateful, racist post. I have a hard time understanding the double standard here. J.

LOL, think what you will, I speak only for myself and I am a white female. IMO, its beyond time that we had someone besides a white male running this country. Like it or not. LOL @ the racism comments./dandyfop

Janie, I see that double standard a lot and I blame the families who are still biased and are not educating their children properly. Most of us work very hard at teaching our children that we are all created equal and to treat each other with respect, no matter their skin color or origin. /Sammie

dandyfop, I am curious who you are going to vote for? If you are voting for Obama because he is black you are making a mistake because he is white. I am surprised Obama refers to himself as black because he is just as much white as black. It is not the color of the skin that makes a person qualified to run our country. I can understand someone voting for a woman because of her sex, or a man because he is black, if he is just as qualified or more qualified than the other candidate. But to vote against someone because they are white or black is unintelligent and ridiculous. It is voters like you who can put our country into the wrong hands. This is a very important election year and we need to think long and hard on who will make the best candidate. /Sammie

Sammie, genetically Obama may be as much white as he is black, but the way the real world works here in America he's a black man. If you didn't know his history and know his mother was white, that's all you'd see too. Years ago I had neighbors who were an innteracial couple, a black guy with a white wife and they had a little boy. We all got to be really good friends. One day I asked the wife about this same issue and she said the fact that she was white didn't matter. When her son is out in the world he's black and that's how he will be treated. While I applaud your belief that race shouldn't matter, as a black woman in America let me tell you that it does. Affirmative action initiatives have done far more for women than for AAs. We're no where close to a color-blind society. Obama won't be the only candidate getting race based votes. Millions of people will go to the polls and vote for John McCain not because they like him but because the last thing they want to see is a you-know-what in the White House. As for the rest of the OPs comments. I didn't say anything because I had nothing to say. (Mrs. B. H.)

Mrs. B. Harris, that is very true, I have heard white people say that they would not vote for a black man. Most of them are the older generation. It is just as hard to change the white persons way of thinking as it is for the black's to change their way of thinking. The younger generation can change that by teaching their children to love everyone. The whites, black's, hispanic's, all need to teach their children to love everyone no matter the race. If children hear their parents saying hateful remarks about another race you can bet the children will be strongly influenced by what they hear. Too bad. I think we have come a long way but I realise we have a way to go yet. /Sammie

Hey Sammie- you can keep your unsolicited advice to yourself. I suppose Im am going to have to spell it out for you all, even though I thought I did by saying *3 qualified candidates*. FCOL. How about this? ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. Does that make it easier for you to understand? Im not voting for any random idiot because of their sex or the color of their skin. If I had 3 qualified candidates to choose from, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, I would choose the woman or the person of color. Does that clear it up for you, or would anyone else like to come in and accuse me of being a racist or question how I was brought up? Should I break down exactly what I mean by the all things being equal phrasing? LOL. Sammie, you do not know me, but I will just say its utterly unintelligent and ridiculous of you to presume anything of my knowledge of either the candidates or the issues- if only you knew how funny that is. I have to laugh at how eager you are to jump on me on the race issue when it comes to a white person being on the losing team- and then you point out Obama is white. Hilarious.

Dandyfop, I've thought about your post and I don't think it's racist. All things being equal I would have been happy with Hillary or John Edwards (before it came out that he's a cheater) or Joe Biden for president. But when I weighed the candidates two things stood out for me. One, the country needs real change and that can't come from people who have multi-terms in the senate. And two, Barack Obama was a black man. Had he been an unqualified black man, like Jesse Jackson was when I voted for Al Gore years ago, then I would have dismissed him. But he was a highly qualified black man. There have been times when, liking both candidates, I've chose a white woman because she was female. So, now that I thought about it, I get where you're coming from. The best government is a diverse government. Race and gender are components to bring to the table but not the only ones. And I know I'll piss off a lot of people with this, but when I saw the Republican slate during the primaries I thought they were just another bunch of old white guys and that somebody else, a woman or an AA deserved a chance to lead. If it makes you guys feel any better, I'd be happy to turn the NBA back over to white guys. (Mrs. B. H.)

*The best government is a diverse government* DING! Finally. Thank goodness for you Mrs. BH. :-)

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Posted by: Roxie
Date posted: Sat Oct 4 23:05:44 2008
Message:
I don't think any person should ever cast a vote because of a candidate's race. Why can we not all just look at the qualifications of the PERSON and vote for the one we feel is the best candidate? Anybody who will go to the polls and vote decided on race should really stay at home on election day!

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Also, I am white and won't pretend that I know what you have gone through, but I really can imagine how thrilling it is to have the opportunity to vote for a respectable and qualified AA candidate for president. We may have a long way to go, but we have come a long way in a few decades! I am proud of that. Roxie

Roxie, that's exactly it. In some ways we are still dealing with the issues of slavery and Jim Crow and in others I'm amazed at how far we've come in such a short time. As for race-based voting, I think what happens a lot of times is unless its a president or a mayor or a govenor people often don't know enough about a candidate. The media (I know I'm among them) rarely gives voters a lot on anything but the big races so people just vote. Black folks assume a black person is more intuned to what's important to them. Also, we identify with each other in other ways, sort of the way all of black America loved Joe Lewis or became Dodger fans because of Jackie Robinson. Older black folks still love the Dodgers because of him. Today, we root for the black figure skater or swimmer at the Olympics. So when you know little else about a candidate other than their race, you vote for them and hope they understand you. (Mrs. B. H.)

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