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DOOL Discussion Group
I've been doing a lot of thinking about relationships...what I'm looking for, what I offer, what it takes to make a long lasting relationship/marriage. I have had two very serious relationships in my life. Obviously as times change, so do people and so do the nature of relationships. The stakes also rise as you get older. But here is what I can't wrap my head around...does being in love mean having to 'give up' your existing friends. Does being 'in love' mean you are 'owned' by this other person? It's funny because as far as everyday jokes go, women are often depicted as these needy, possessive and somewhat controlling creatures. Yet interestingly enough, possessiveness/control are two qualities that I have come across quite a bit in the opposite sex. We will take my most recent dating experience for the sake of argument though the ex-Man was not the only one who had these issues.
The ex-Man had a huge problem with friendships with the opposite sex. He was not comfortable with it. So this was my predicament...I have a couple of really good male friends. These are people that were in my life before the ex Man ever came into it. So where did he have the right to say..you can't hang out alone with these guys anymore? Was that his right? Ok I can understand not establishing 'new' connections with members of the opposite sex. But am I supposed to throw away my male friends every time I start dating someone? When all is said and done and the relationship fails...the new love interest goes their merry way and you are left without a lover and without your friends. You see where I'm going with this? Out of respect for the ex-Man and his comfort level, I started getting too 'busy' to hang out with my male friends. That's what I told them as I tried to figure out in my head how I could make the ex Man see that if there was an interest between me and my male friends we would have gotten together by now. Obviously there's no romantic chemistry. He never got to meet these guys but I fully intended for them to meet. I thought maybe that would help. But he still maintained that there would be no need for me to go out with them for a coffee, to talk or shop or whatever. Not alone. There are so many hypothetical scenarios I can come up with where this stance just doesn't make sense!! Here are a few:
1. I want/love to go shopping. The ex-Man hated shopping with a passion. It's a nice Saturday morning, the ex-Man prefers to work. Why is it so wrong for me to call up my male friend who LOVES shopping to come with me?
2. My male friends asks to go for drinks. I ask my bf if he would join us. No, gotta work or got other plans etc. So why is it wrong for me to go ahead and go for these few drinks since my bf preferred/had to work?
3. I'm out and about shopping or whatever and I run into a male friend. We are alone. Why is it then wrong for us to decide to spend the day together since we bumped into each other and go out for a meal or movie?
These scenarios never happened but they could have! I'm just trying to paint a picture of why it seems unreasonable and restrictive to me. If you truly trust your partner, why sweat the small stuff? And in the end...our relationship ended but my guy friends made no mention of anything and they are just happy to be seeing more of me again. If I were them...I wouldn't have been so understanding. I'm glad I didn't lose my friends though I felt I deserved to lose them.
I want a man who frees me with his love not captures me. The way I see it, someone who has a cheating nature will cheat regardless of how many restrictions you're going to put on them. And someone who does not cheat won't no matter how many temptations you throw their way. It's about self respect. I respect myself too much to ever cheat because I have to live with that knowledge, look at a cheater in the mirror, it would destroy my self-esteem.
So am I going to remain single because I think this way and this is not the way 'marriage minded' people think?! Do you have to erase certain parts of your current life to create a new life with a partner? And what happens when you lose your partner....you've lost your old life too. I really would love to hear your thoughts.
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Hey you! I "so" owe you an email! I will email you soon, I promise.
Here's my opinion for what it is worth. When it's "right", your man won't care WHO your friends are! It's that simple IMO.
Yes, you should be able to have platonic friendships with men without his overeacting. My ex of 6.5 years was jealous over such relationships. That was one of many signs we weren't right for each other. My husband has never cared about my guy friends (I have two, one gay, one not gay, he doesn't care about either!)... as a matter of fact my good guy friend (not gay) was at our wedding, and my hubby had never even met him before then. He trusts my friendships and would never question them.
Having said that, things DO seem to change after marriage. I hardly hear from my guy friend anymore. I think he is trying to be respectful, and thinks if it were him, he wouldn't want a guy friend calling his wife. I've told him and told him my husband doesn't care, but still, it's different. We used to talk so often. I appreciate his being respectful, but I don't understand why we should talk any less than we did before.
Anyway sweetie hang in there, you are such a great person and HE is out there, I know it!
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I wanted to respond to this topic for a different reason, however. You talk of romantic relationships as if they tend to be transient ("what happens when you lose your partner?", etc.), yet you also talk about love, trust, building a life, etc. To me, there is a huge difference between a dating/boyfriend/girlfriend "relationship" and a committed relationship such as marriage which has love, trust, etc. in it. Dating someone, IMO, is not "building a life with them", and if after dating someone for a while, you both realize you do want to build a life together, then I think the nature of the relationship has to change and move towards something more permanent. If you view things this way, as I do, the idea of "lovers can go away, but friends stay forever" ceases to make sense. I have never understood it when people make comments like that, because I do not view relationships as all that serious unless they lead to marriage. Of course, along with that, I recommend not being physically intimate, etc., until a relationship reaches a level of commitment. To me, there's no such thing as a "boyfriend". I have never understood the word, and I did not use it while I was looking for a marriage partner (i.e., "dating").
Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts on relationships. Maybe there's something in there that will help clarify things for you. I know most people in modern American culture disagree with my view, but whatever ...
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It all depends on the context including the seriousness of the relationship with the SO (newly dating, committed relationship, marriage) and the length, nature, and quality of the relationship with the friend(s).
If one person in the relationship is simply trying to control the other or separate them from their friends in general, then you already know the answer to that is to drop the SO. But if that person has a problem with one friend in particular, then you need to examine the reason and determine if things can be worked out between the SO and the friend OR whether one or the other may have to go. It all depends on the reasons and motivation of the SO for disliking the friend. Sometimes the SO is simply being possessive or jealous or insecure but other times he or she may have a reasonable point and in that case it may be better to cut the friend loose than jeopardize the relationship with the SO. It depends on too many things to give a blanket answer.
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I was 39 when I met my husband, so perhaps I can give you another perspective. I had an established life and some of my friends were/are male. I also work in a somewhat male-dominated field. I did not (have not) noticed a big issue with my male friends, but somewhat of an issue with friends in general. Do you share your friends or do things separately? Like many men, my husband knows a lot of people, but doesn't really have a lot of friends. This is especially noticeable the last few years, since he has been retired. In the beginning of a relationship, I think it is natural to want to be mostly with each other. And it used to bother me if my husband didn't want to do things with MY friends (I have a wedding of a girlfriend coming up in a few weeks and I wasn't sure if he'd go with me; he is.), but now I just do the things I want to and try to balance it with my family responsibilities. Sometimes my husband will jokingly (I think) say something when I have lunch with a male friend, but I try to laugh it off too and not feel guilty.
As others have said, you will know when it is right and you will be able to merge the different parts of your life that are important to you, Sephora.
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When I got married, I had one very close male friend - someone that I actually dated in the past, briefly, and someone I'd known for at least 4 years before I met hubby. He attended my wedding, and we continued to hang out and have a great (friends) relationship after I got married - and my husband had no problem with it, even when we hung out together alone and/or without him. Now, he also knows this guy and they are friendly, although maybe not what I'd say friends - so maybe that had to do with it. Husband was secure in the fact that he believed that our "dating" days were years behind us and he understood that this guy was just as important to me as my girlfriends without their being anything sexual behind it.
I wish I could say I've been as secure with him. Essentially there's one girl who I've always felt had a thing for my husband although I couldn't tell you why - and every so often she gets in contact with him and it always pisses me off, although I try to just brush it off. It's irrational and probably based on nothing, but it's something I've never been able to shake. While I trust that he would never cheat on me, it still irritates me when she makes an effort to get in contact with him. This may be because he never truly introduced me to this girl and I never got to know her at all. Maybe the answer is making your significant other feel comfortable with your friends of the opposite sex, or at least friendly. All that said, I never tell him he can't be in contact with her although he knows I don't love it.
I'm rambling. Sorry. lol.
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You just need to find Mr Right, and there won't be this struggle. That's the only way I can put it. There is no right or wrong answer. If maintaining opposite sex friendships is important to you, then you will have to find a man who is OK with that.
Now, I will say, in my experience that is not an easy task. In my own marriage, hubby and I have acquaintances at work of both sexes, but it never crosses over socially. Never has, either. From very early on in our relationship, this is how it has been (over 19 years!).
But, it works for US. It isn't based at all in insecurity on either of our parts. Neither of us has a huge need to socialize outside of our marriage. I meet friends at Starbucks for coffee now and then, he has lunch with friends during work. As for going out, we save that for eachother.
He could care less about shopping, I usually go with my mom and daughters :).
Anyway, this is what works for us, we are two peas in a pod on this issue. It's just the way it is, no effort, no feeling that we had to give anything up.
In your case, it sounds like having these friendships outside of your relationship is important, so you need to find someone who shares that feeling.
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But you know this already! :)
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Sephora, trust is a MAJOR part of a relationship..when hubby N and I met he was very jealous and possesive, but as time went on he learnt to trust me and our relationship improved....but yep....as much as I would like to say that you should not have to give up your interests or your friends, in reality I think every relationship takes work and you just have to conform yourself to an extent with your significant other and vice versa.
I do wish you luck.....and I hope you find someone compatible and loving, you deserve it!
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When Mr. ML and I met, I was in college. I had a lot of guy friends...in fact, he knew most of them. OK, I knew them from frat barrooms, and he knew them from the football field. But he didn't have a problem with them...
My two best friends married each other...they're now both our best friends. The male of the species and I always walk hand in hand or have our arms around each other or something ridiculous...but that's us. No problem...
Mr. ML is very secure. I guess that's the whole thing. And he has reason to be secure...he gives me no reason to stray. I guess that's the whole thing...
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No, you shouldn't have to give up friends, male or female. If you were going to develop a romantic relationship with any of the male friends it probably would have already happened.Plus good friends are hard to come by and they are sooo important.
I personally find a possesive partner very unattractive. Even though John and I are having problems we never had that one. When we first met I loved to go dancing in NYC, he hated it so I always went with my male friend. Yes, he was gay but as I said if you were going to have that type of relationship with any of your male friends it would have happened already.
I LOVE the beach, John and the boys not so much. Now that they are older I just go by myself and chat with whoever is there.
I do think you make compromiseds when you are in a relationship, but there are some that are deal breakers. A possesive partner would be a deal breaker for me because I am a very social person and I love people!
It also stinks of insecurinty which is REALLY icky.
For some reason I have had that problem with a number of girlfriends that think I should only be friends with them. I nip that in the bud pronto now!~
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Oh, Sephora, you are asking some very valid questions. I hope I can give you a little advice. I've been married for a long time but still remember what it was like to be single, lol! I can tell you this, couples are not, and should not be, always joined at the hip. Yeah, in the early stages of a relationship, you naturally want to spend every minute together doing things you both like and have in common. It sounds like that's not been the case with you and your ex. From an outside view, it also sounds like he is a bit selfish and insecure, while you sound like you are understanding enough to give him his space. It's not fair that he would begrudge you going out with your friends, male or female. And it's insulting if he doesn't trust you! Believe me, my husband would be thrilled for one of my guy friends to go shopping with me so he wouldn't have to! Same with me, he can take one of our female friends fishing at the crack of dawn any time! And yeah, sometimes we do just that, but we've been together so long it's not any kind of issue and our friends of the opposite sex are also each other's.
Having your own identity, own interests, and supporting your partner in theirs is critical to a relationship in the long term. And trust is always a key component to any relationship. When you truly love each other, it shouldn't be a problem, but good relationships do take time and effort on both sides. But worth it!!
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I totally understand what you mean.... I have problems, not even with male friends, but with other issues because I am an independent soul and I don't believe being in love means you "own" the other person. My issues are more with my money and my time. But it's the same type of thing, so I know where you're coming from. Sometimes I wonder if I'm "meant" to be married.... but everything is okay so far, so I guess I did find the right person for me.
I would say, in the theoretical circumstances that you described, that that particular ex boyfriend was not the one for you. It's not that you can't be in a long-term relationship or get married, but that you have a special need for a very SECURE person. And that is harder to find.
When you marry someone, yeah you have to take their wishes into account or the marriage is never going to last. That's why we date, to see if we can stand the person enough to marry them. LOL Hubby Em doesn't ask a lot of me. We have a poker group, mostly (or often only) men. If it's our turn to have poker at our house, and Hubby Em has to work late, he'll tell the guys to come on over and he'll get there later. Or sometimes he'll get tired of playing and go home, and I finish up and come home later (no sense in me cashing in early when I'm doing well). We have no jealousy issues with the opposite sex, because we each know that there is nobody else out there that would make us happier. We're secure that way. So yes, it can happen.
He has had to learn (and it's not been a big issue, either, but more of a learning how I am) that I am going to do what I'm going to do.... period. He knows I would NEVER do anything to hurt him or be inconsiderate of his feelings. But if I want to do something, it is important to me, and he doesn't object unless he has a really good reason. We don't try to control each other. If he wants to do something with a friend, I don't pitch a fit because I wanted him to take me to the movies, because the movies aren't important enough to control him over. I will mention that I wanted to go to the movies; can we do it afterward? Sure. Same with him. If I want to go shopping, he doesn't tell me I can't. But we have our own separate incomes and bank accounts. One joint account is for our bills and saving for mutual needs, like furniture or a vacation. But we have some separate money. I pay my credit card out of that, shop out of that, etc. And with his money, he takes me out a lot but he can go buy man stuff and I don't roll my eyes over "wasting money" because it is HIS. I love having things this way, and people, lots of people, think it is weird. But our mutual needs are met, and we have some freedom without having to check with each other over every purchase. We both love our freedom. And I love all the little surprises he buys me, which wouldn't be surprises if he had to check with me first. LOL
So yeah.... there's a man out there for you! You have to find one who is confident and secure, doesn't have jealousy issues or want to control you. It does exist! I have male friends, I have financial independence, and I have a life while my husband is at work all day. And there's never been an issue over it. I could not be married any other way, so trust me when I say you CAN have both! You always have to consider each other's needs, of course, but there is a nice middle ground where you get your needs met and still don't control or own one another.
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