TV Talk Discussion Group

Topic: In the news - horse euthanized at Kentucky Derby

Okay, I'm probably in the minority here, so I'll expect some flaming.  Ever since I heard about the results of the race and the details of the 2nd-place horse who had to be euthanized, I've been thinking about what may have caused the horse to suddenly break two ankles after the end of the race.  Seems fishy to me.

I heard that the jockey had "stood up" just before it happened.  I don't know much about horse racing but I guess I've seen them all do that, at least the winners - the jockeys rise up & start waving when they win.  But ... I just have to think, to cause a horse to trip on itself like that, it seems like it must have been really startled/unsteadied.  Might this jockey have been reacting to not coming in first, and poking, whipping or otherwise letting the horse know how frustrated he was?

I'm just saying.

The attached article gives the story - PETA has sent a complaint to the race officials, and of course their first reaction is to say it's preposterous.  I guess it's an age-old story, that it's a huge money-making business that attracts a lot of die-hard (and/or addicted?) gamblers, and many people are ADAMANT about their "love" of these horses.  Which I see as misguided, since I think if you truly love horses you don't want to see them being trained & forced to run around a track for certain people's amusement.

Okay, bring on the criticism ...

http://sports.yahoo.com/rah/news?slug=ap-peta-eightbelles&prov=ap&type=lgns

I have mixed feelings.  I rode horses in my younger years and frequently visited Belmont race track, as well as worked as a hot walker for one summer when I was in college.  To be up close and personal to those beautiful animals was a tremendous thrill.   I met jockies and trainers and they truly loved the horses and respected them.  Jockies have been in horrible accidents with the horses falling on them or running over them, some crippled for life. 

I feel that horse racing should not be done away with, but improved.  First off, change the track surfaces to what they use in several race courses in England, Polytrack.  It is softer on their delicate feet.   And they are overbred, the gene pool is becoming very weak.  I am not sure how that could be corrected except to introduce new genes into the pool. 

And stop having so many horses compete at one time.   It was like a cattle stampede on Saturday.   I also would have rules concerning fitness of the horses as well as age limits. 

I fear that if horse racing is banned, what happens to these horses?   Most horses that are retired go off to live long and happy lives on beautiful horse farms, living out their days making love, unless they are gelded of course.   Forego was one horse I had the honor of hotwalking.  That horse was a star and treated like one. 

I think if racing could be regulated to protect the animals better, we would not have to throw out the baby with the bathwater.   I love animals - right now I am feeling so bad as a stray cat I have taken care of for nine years disappeared.  He went off into the woods one night and never came back.  He had his home on our front porch, with a heating pad for the winter and his igloo.  His last dinner was left-over pot roast, that he dearly loved.  I can't believe he is gone.   I am so glad the other cats I rescued, all five of them, now live in our house and are house cats.  Morris did have the best of both worlds I suppose, being able to rule his kingdom outside and still having a safe place to stay.   I hope, being that he was probably 12 or more years old, he just passed away while chasing a squirrel, his heart gave out.  I miss Morris so much. 

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I just wanted to add that we seem to always be fascinated with records and raising the bar higher and higher. The fastest horses, bred from other fast horses, who breed other fast horses, and on and on, using the same gene pool. Just like with figure skating - where the skaters once were considered accomplished when they could do a single jump, then came the double, then the triple, and finally to the virtually-impossible quad. What about the beauty of skating? Elegance and artistry, or excitement and daring that doesn't have to consist of a certain number of jumps. Or that rare horse that comes along and merely excels because it has the heart of a champion, like Big Red, Secretariat. I think we have so many corporations involved in owning sports figures, rather than individuals, it is all about the bottom line. Even in baseball, the pressure to hit the most runs, pitch until you are past the age when it is safe for your body to do it, and you resort to illegal drugs to hone your body into a shape it was never meant to be in. My point is there is nothing wrong with any sport as long as the sport is just as important as the win. Horse racing with respect for the animals being paramount, not the big bucks, is what I would like to see. I hope I made some sense here, but probably not. And, by the way, I lost respect for Peta years ago when they compared a child to a rat, meaning their value was the same. Or parents who feed their children meat are animal abusers. They are just too extreme for me. Elaine/eom

But if you look at the lineage, this particular line that populated the entire field of horses at the Derby this year, was from the same 50+ yr old line! Most of the last 50+ yrs of racing has had members of this line participating--including Secretariat, Ruffian, Barbaro & Eight Belles! I love horses, but have long loathed the BUSINESS of horses. eom

Hi Elaine. I totally agree with you about making horse racing about the horses as much as the humans. How lucky to be that up close and personal with those goregoue creatures! I think this whole controversy is part of a quantum shift in a new narrative that does not put human's at the center of the universe, that's all. PETA is extreme, but it is a valid voice in making us look at animal rights as just common sense. Look at what overbreeding is going to do to horse racing if it is not addressed in a sensible way. I feel so sorry for your loss. Boy do we have a lot in common. I rescued ferals too and just lost our tom last fall as well as a little calico a friend adopted who just diappeared one day. I have two who have become house cats (not always very happy ones) left. They are amazing, amazing little people who speak cat which IS pretty egocentric. They actually do not speak to me if I do not play with them at the appointed meet up time. Have you read Tribe of the Tiger? I have loved all my domesticated cats, but I truly feel these ferals are like another tribe in the house with their own rules and regulations that a mere human cannot possibly understand! I am hoping Morris is on a romantic interlude and will return with a big smile on his face. Thalia

I was really young when Forego was racing and never saw him ''live'' but I have seen some of his races on video. The 1976 Marlboro Cup is one of my favorite races ever.eom/lisa3

Lisa, you are a student of horseracing! I had pics of the race you mentioned in a scrapbook I kept through the 70s on horseracing. My favorite has to be the tremendous finish by Secretariat at Belmont to win him the triple crown. Forego was a pleasure to walk, but he had been gelded when I met him, and I heard from a trainer that he had been quite a lot to handle before that. Some of the horses I walked were quite nippy and anxious, but I learned to be calm and to have a few bits of sugar for them after the walk. Another beautiful racetrack in New York State is the one at Saratoga Springs, quite a beautiful town once known for its restorative springs. We used to go there every summer for the Travers stakes and for the concerts at Saratoga Performing Arts Cener at the state park. Those are some lovely memories. Elaine/eom

Thalia, I hope you are right about Morris, but this is the longest he has been gone since a very cold winter back in 2004 when he disappeared for two weeks. Then, one day, there he was sitting in his igloo, like he was always there. I expect he had some place else he went in those days, as it was common for him to be gone for three or more days and he always came back looking fine. Now he has been showing his age and was in a fight a few weeks back. I had him on anbiotics and got some medicine on the wound he had on his neck, which looked like a bite mark. I fear he might have gone to battle again over some cute young female cat! This time he might have lost. No, I haven't read the book you speak of, but I have heard of it. You are so right about feral cats and their quirky personalities. I could write a book on these cats. The funny thing is the cats I have had that were domesticated fit in well with each other and actually were closer to each other than they were to us. The feral cats who are now house cats fight for lap time and don't interact with each other, particularly Princess, who is the mom of two of them, Milo and Twinky. Shadow and Heidi are brother and sister - we rescued them and their sister when a farm dog killed their mother who was defending her kittens apparently. Princess hates them! She does seem to be the one who misses the outdoors the most. // I agree that PETA has done good things, but they lose support when they come out with such strong statements as the one I mentioned. I was happy to hear that there is an investigation going on now because of the death of Eight Belles to improve conditions for race horses. Hopefully her death will not be in vain. Elaine/eom

Rosebud, as always, you make a valid point. I know all racehorses can trace their lineage back to great thoroughbreds. Bold Ruler, Man o' War, etc. Just as pure bred cats and dogs can trace their lineage back to a specific gene pool. I have been to cat shows where the cats have their lineage proudly displayed. And I don't care for cat shows at all. The problem is horseracing is not going away any time soon and calling attention to Eight Belles breaking down has already led to an investigation that could possibly improve conditions, specifically the race tracks they run on. Bad decisions are always going to be made by human beings concerning animals, it is a sad fact. I know you love horses and I can understand where you are coming from, as horse racing does involve gambling and loads of money. I don't bet on horseracing, I like to keep up with the rising stars of horseracing each year and particularly follow the Kentucky Derby, the Preakness and the Belmont Stakes. I was lucky to spend one summer in close proximity to horses who race and I preferred it to the years I spent in Washington, D.C., lol. I can't say I met one mean trainer or jockey or anyone who did not truly love the horses they worked with. I did see one idiot kick a horse who kicked him, and he was fired on the spot. It was the only bad thing I witnessed that summer. I met characters right out of O.Henry's tales of New Yorkers at the turn of the century. I still remember when they played The Sidewalks of New York at the beginning the Belmont Stakes. Now they sing New York New York. It isn't the same. It probably has gotten to be too much of a business ruled by corporations concerned with the bottom line and less about the magic of a magnificent horse crossing the finish line to the applause of horse lovers and happy gamblers alike. Horseracing was once the sport of kings and can be traced back to the time when man first domesticated the horse. With our natural lands disappearing and suburban sprawl, I fear that one day horses will slowly disappear from our culture and end up in zoos where future generations will only be able to read about the days when horses were celebrity sport stars right along with human athletes. In short, I want the conditions to change, but I for one would mourn the loss of the great tradition of horse racing. Elaine/eom

Elaine: Sadly, I do think you're right. Western Washington lost a great racetrack, & lots of racing business throughout the state, when Longacres left us--in favor of development & big $$. I've been around horse trainers, horses & never liked the business side. One of my college professors had a son-in-law who was a jockey & her daughter was a horse trainer. Very few people talk about the risky, dangerous business of being a jockey. He always had to be concerned w/his weight & there were a lot of jockeys who had eating disorders or who did other unhealthy things to maintain impossibly low weights during the racing season. One of my cousins is a vet tech & p/t horse trainer. She doesn't train racehorses though. She has relatives who are breeders. I had a friend, yrs ago, who lived near a stable where they had a horse (a hunter/jumper) who had been overworked & had a nervous breakdowns of sorts. He could never be ridden again. His previous owners had over-shown him, without breaks, & he couldn't take it anymore. Obviously, the owners didn't want him after the breakdown. A lot of people don't realize that many of even the big name horses end up in the foreign market as horsemeat. Frankly, I wouldn't want to eat anything that had been pumped full of the stuff they use in racing!! eom

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Posted by: Summer
Date posted: Wed May 7 22:09:43 2008
Message:

I used to love going to horse racing. In the 70s - maybe 80s we got a beautiful horse racing track right here in my little Shakopee, MN community - Canterbury Downs. Because of my husband's work, we always had fabulous tables and dining, and fun fun fun ....drinks and parties and a whole day at the races, free except for our own personal betting. We went a lot and bet a lot and considered it all good fun,  

but after witnessing just a few of these types of mishaps with the horses, I could no longer rationalize (which is what we are all doing when we defend this exploitation of these beautiful animals) and I just can not go back there. Canterbury Downs is less than a mile from my home and I have free tickets and access up the wazoo. But I have seen up close a beautiful animal freaked out enough to try to run crazy off the course, two others put to 'sleep' with a tent around them, right in front of me on the finish line, and I just can't go out there any more --- It is not possible to unthink or unremember.

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Sounds like you had a really profound personal experience, Summer, that causes you to see the sport in a whole new light. Now you undoubtedly see what all of us *animal fanatics* feel, that anytime an animal is hurt or killed for man's entertainment, it is a real sin against life itself. We may be bigger, more powerful or more able to control many animals, but that doesn't give us the right to use them in any way we please. *Live and let live* shouldn't apply to humans only. -SpellingAddict

Yes, I have never liked hunting, but I thought horse racing was

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Posted by: Rosebud1
Date posted: Mon May 5 17:17:55 2008
Message:
First, the horse didn't 'just fall down'.  Chances are pretty good that the ankle bones breaking caused the fall, not the other way around.  She comes from a line of race horses w/a long history of having weakened bones.  Many of her relatives in that line (including Barbaro) have had similar issues.  Another contributing factor may have been that she wasn't fully developed yet.  She was still growing, so her bones may not have been strong enough to withstand the pressures of running a long race.  The lineage issues were discussed even before the race.  Our local paper had a huge article about it days before the race happened!  Every horse in the Derby this year is biologically related to each other.  Inbreeding is also a big issue & has been for a long time.

I don't see what the jockey's position in the saddle has to do w/anything.  She was being cooled down after crossing the finish line.  They always do that during the period where the horses are going from race-mode to walking.  Jockeys are hardly going to cause a horse to break both ankles!  They weigh next to nothing & these horses are capable of carrying far more weight than that.  Suspending the jockey also makes no sense to me.  It implies that he is responsible, in some way, for what happened, when that really is a longshot.  I can't think of a worse place for a jockey to be at a time like that than on the horse.  If he knew that was going to happen, he would have been as far away as possible.  The chance would have been too great for him to end up getting rolled on or trampled to death, or at least causing potential career ending injuries.  Jockeys have been paralyzed or killed in riding accidents! 

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Posted by: Rin Tim-Tim
Date posted: Mon May 5 10:18:43 2008
Message:

I'm kinda glad that I didn't watch the Derby - I wanted to, but my rehearsal ran late.

 

But my question is - when a horse has this type of accident - articles said that the accident life/career -threatening - is there another alternative then putting the horse down - couldn't it live off its life and "heal" and not be a racehorse?

 

Does anyone have any expert advice - can they just re-habilitate the horse?  I just feel bad about this story and my heart hurts.  I get sad when squirrels/coon/possum/deer are dead on the street.  Two weeks ago outside of my apt building in the garden area, there was a bird who's wing was injured and and couldn't fly - I so wanted to help it out but knew I couldn't do anything about it - that night there was a rainstorm and drowned the poor bird.

 

Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!  I am just an animal lover!  (but then again, I would smoosh a spider/bug or kill a snake if it threatened me)

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The ankles in both forelegs were broken. She couldn't even stand up. She was struggling to stand and was basically on her knees, terrified and helpless, immediately. Horses can't live lying down. Their innards get twisted and they die in horrendous pain. If they can't stand and distribute their roughly 1000 pounds of weight fairly equally on all four hooves, they also face other potential complications. Even a single broken leg is very hard to fix. There is no way that horse could have been saved, sadly. Trying to do it would have just prolonged her agony and putting her down ASAP was the right thing was done. eom/lisa3

Thanks lisa - my co-worker said the same exact thing - my follow up question if you know the answer - couldn't they build supports for the horse until the bone heals? Like tie/attach/drill/boot *fake* legs or a boot/cast to help the horse walk - cushion the break as the horse would trot like they do humans? I just feel for the horse; I know the horse is in a better place (horse heaven) - you could imagine what I acted like when those soldiers threw that puppy over the cliff in the Middle East. A dog owner I am! Rin Tim-Tim/eom

The vet that the commentators were talking to said that it was crystal clear that she had to be put down. Unlike Barbaro, she had nothing to stand on. Barbaro at least had three 'good' legs to support him, initially. eom

No... there really is no device or boot or whatever that would provide enough to support two broken legs. Eight Belles would not have been able to distribute her weight equally on all four feet and would have suffered. Also, it's very hard to keep a horse fairly immobile for the length of time it takes even one broken bone to recover. If the horse struggles at all while wearing a cast/boot, reinjuring the leg is very possible. Even worse, if the broken bone goes through the skin (though I don't know if it did with Eight Belles), that's an especially grievous injury. Luckily for dogs, they don't have the same system as a horse and can recover from a broken leg or an amputation reasonably well. I love dogs too, wish I could one but it's currently not possible. eom/lisa3

lisa3: With Barbaro, they had him suspended in a sling for a long time, so he wasn't putting weight on his legs at all. He also spent a lot of time in the recovery pool, as a lot of thoroughbreds do. While they can repair a lot of breaks now that weren't treatable before, there are still some injuries that just can't be repaired. This was one of them. eom

PS, lisa3: Barabaro DID do more damage to his leg(s) later, during the recovery process. He was thrashing around & caused more injury to himself. eom

Yes, I know Barbaro was in a sling for a while. He was not in it for extended periods--he used it for portions of some days, and was out of it during the other parts of those days. And I do know that various new methods are being developed and some have had some success in some cases, but they didn't pertain to Eight Belles's condition, seeing that two broken legs were involved and apparently at least one bone penetrated the skin. Personally, I think they should have stopped trying with Barbaro when he first developed laminitis. eom/lisa3

lisa3: ICAM, about Barbaro. I thought the same thing, especially when I saw/heard what happened during his recovery that caused more damage to be done. From the business of horses perspective, he wasn't going to be capable of mounting a mare w/such damage. So the $$ from breeding would have been non-existent. eom

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Posted by: serialmom
Date posted: Mon May 5 8:24:37 2008
Message:

Twenty 1000+ lb animals clustered together, each being whipped with a crop, made to run at breakneck speed and one falls down?   What a surprise?   Who would expect THAT to happen?

Oh well, on the positive side, she'll never have to be whipped into a frenzy again. 

I am being sarcastic because it makes me so angry.  Its such an ugly, ugly tradition.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/04/sports/othersports/04rhoden.html?hp 

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Right here with you, Serialmom. Rather than being sarcastic I think you probably did an excellent job of describing this drunken tradition quite perfectly from the horses' point of view.. These horses are brutalized no matter how you cut it, and they are trained and raced way too early. That is what happened once again. I am sorry I watched the news today because I saw what happened before I looked away. That was a beautiful and magnificant animal sacrificed to greed and stupidity. Thalia

In looking at the history of her lineage, there were a lot of reasons NOT to race her, or even breed her! That line is known for having breaks, some of them life threatening. There were probably a lot of contributing factors--running too early, running that length of a race, running at all, inbreeding, greed, etc. eom

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Posted by: lisa3
Date posted: Mon May 5 3:19:52 2008
Message:

ALL jockeys "stand up" in the saddle (rise to a higher position) after a race to enable them to better control and gradually slow their mounts. Eight Belles had been slowing down for around a quarter mile past the wire when she went down. In a replay, the jockey's position on the horse is virtually unchanged in the several seconds before her stumble to the point when she fell. He wasn't poking or whipping or punishing her in any way.  Also, Eight Belles was running in basically a straight line right before the breakdown. She didn't shy, duck, or make any move that would indicate she had been startled. She was galloping along one minute, and in the next, her ankles simply snapped and down she went. Seems like it was just a freak injury with no specific cause. They do happen.

As for the jockey: If people could cause that nonsensical fuss a few years ago about Jose Santos supposedly carrying a tiny shocking device in his hand as he rode Funny Cide to victory in the Preakness (he was clearly shown to be innocent, the object in question being the end of his whip), I'm sure that if Gabriel Saez had indeed done anything at all untoward to that filly, the world would already know about it. TV cameras and spectators were all over the place.

Regarding the assertion that people in the industry don't love the horses... my response is beyond unprintable, and I'll leave it at that.

And I have a pretty low opinion of PETA anyway. Of course they're complaining and twisting facts and picking at anything they can find to pick at. That's what they do. I don't completely disagree with everything they say but they're extremists and go about things the wrong way.

Now, I was really impressed with Big Brown's great run. To win going away, after breaking from the 20 post, is something else. I'm not getting too excited here and saying Triple Crown winner, because he's still got to win the other two races and those are not easy, but it was an extremely good Derby win no matter what else happens in his career. Then there was Denis of Cork closing from last to 3rd at around 25-1, which is more than respectable. I had liked Colonel John, who finished 6th. I think more will be heard from him down the line, though. My mother, who doesn't really follow the horses much, casually picked the 1-2 finishers. She was a better handicapper than I was this year!

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I realize that these accidents happen to race horses. I was afraid initially that it might have been her heart. Wasn't Barbaro's injury the same. I guess nobody has ever seen a horse snap both legs at the same time. I read the jockey's account and he said that when she was winding down he did hear a 'pop' and tried to pull her up, but she wouldn't slow. They are so charged during a race that it takes a long time to bring them to a halt. I'm certainly no expert on horses, but have read some things. She was a beautiful horse. I'm sad. Lizz

Barbaro had a single broken leg (hind). He had a chance at living, because it was just one leg and he could still stand, but he developed complications in his hooves and just couldn't be saved. Yes, the horses usually keep running despite injuries and can be quite difficult to stop. And in races where the jockey falls/is thrown off, a riderless horse tends to continue to race along with the others rather than quitting. Horse racing has been my favorite sport since I was about 13 and it's always upsetting to see a breakdown. :( eom/lisa3

Sport? From whose point of view I wonder. Oh of course, the humans. Sorry but I wish there could be some honesty about what this is and a more appropriate term for it that might take in the animial's perspective... torture? Cruelty to animals? When I saw the horrible track conditions prior to the race because of the rain, I knew this was going to happen to some poor horse who was raced before its muscles had properly matured, and I also knew they would never cancel or postpone the race since it was televised and all things television must run on schedule. I might grant you the 'sport' word if they stopped racing 2 year olds and replaced the tracks with a surface kinder the horses' slender legs. I am happy that you enjoy watching these things, but there really are other points of view about this, and frankly I was just plain sickened by the glimpse I saw of that horse going down and by what happened to another magnificant animal, Barbaro. I had hoped his death might have changed some things, but I guess it will take at least one more. I hope the carnage stops with her. Thalia

Horses run on all sorts of ground conditions, whether it is racing or simply playing w/other horses. The only way that the 'carnage' is going to stop is if that lineage ends, ASAP. I doubt that is going to happen. They ran down that lineage & many horses than have broken down during or after the Derby have some connection to it--including Barbaro. That line has a lot of inbreeding & issues w/fractures. More than the track conditions or a jockey 'standing up in the saddle', the combination of lack of maturity, weak bones & a propensity (sp) for breaks all probably contributed to what happened. I did watch the race & didn't see any footage of her actually going down & suffering until this morning--thank goodness. At least no one tried 'saving' her, which would have just prolonged the agony! eom

Thalia, I didn't make a post attacking your views. I would have appreciated the same courtesy from you. Some of our opinions on this subject differ and some are similar, but your tone and wording certainly strongly imply that you basically think I suck for being a fan of the SPORT of horse racing. Please stop a minute and think about whether you want to insult someone before you press the submit button on your next post. eom/lisa3

I thought. I posted. I was not attacking you. I did attack the concept of horse racing as a sport. Even before this I never could quite grasp that concept. If you think it is a sport and have no problem with what has happened to the practice of racing horses in the era of greed, fine. I happen to think this was not an 'accident' but a trend that is really concerning and sickening, and it is a trend that if it is not dealt with by responsible breeders and owners it will turn away many animal lovers. I thought. I posted again. Thalia

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