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Topic: Wednesday rant. (religious)


Topic Posted by: Kate
Date Posted: Wed Apr 30 8:58:27 2008
Additional Comments:

New York Times:  Cardinal Edward Egan posted a statement on the Archdiocese of New York's Web site stating that he and Giuliani had a "private agreement" that Giuliani would not receive Holy Communion -- then Giuliani violated the agreement by doing so at the April 19 Mass celebrated by Pope Benedict XVI at St. Patrick's Cathedral....because ... ( Guliani supports abortion rights )

Me: What?  He shouldn't be taking communion anyway.  The guy's been married multiple times!  Where'd he take his instuctions? 

New York Times:  Giuliani is also twice-divorced and thrice-married. He never had his second marriage annulled and by church doctrine should not receive Holy Communion for that reason either.   

Me:  Wow!  People of power sure can mess with the laws of my church.  Does anyone here know how hard it is for the average person to have an annullment in the Catholic Church?  Almost impossible.  Unless you're Ted Kennedy.   And why does Cardinal Egan not bounce Rudy about the divorce issue instead of his pro-choice choice?  And "private agreement"?  I don't remember anything about gettting ''agreement'' loopholes.   What kind of nonsense is this? 

  Comments, Please.





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Posted by: W
Date posted: Thu May 1 2:23:11 2008
Message:

I think Rudy's safe! I just called my good buddy, Tony, and he told me Pope trumps Cardinal!

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  • yeah and the Pope makes awesome speaches.

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    Posted by: misspm
    Date posted: Wed Apr 30 21:18:24 2008
    Message:

    But Jesus' body was broken and blood shed to cover a multitude of sins, and his communion is for the forgiven-which EVERYONE is in need of. If anyone had to qualify on their own merit instead of his grace, then NO ONE would be worthy...and what of that little "He who has not sinned, cast the first stone" story?

    Who are we to judge another persons worthiness or to watch another's conscience?-"let everyone work out their own salvation with fear and trembling" as the Bible says.

    Now the Bible does admonish against taking it lightly or in an unworthy manner-but that is for an individual to decide or at least under advice of an ordained church leader. But it isn't for anyone's else's speculation nor under their authority to decide. Only God knows a man's heart.

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  • Sigh - misspm - if only all religious representatives thought like you.....DebS
  • These aren't my thoughts...its what the Bible teaches. :-) ~~misspm
  • Misspm, what you said is exactly how our church handles communion. The focus is on Jesus Christ and his sacrifice, and folks are simply asked to approach communion with the proper heart and attitude and decide within themselves whether or not to partake. Even if he wanted to, the minister couldn't possibly poll 700 people on their ''worthiness.'' - Peridot
  • Ack! can you imagine? Who would want to? We have enough on our plate without the job of being our brother's conscience. ;-) ~~misspm
  • The bible is unfortunately left up to interpretation and has to be taken w/ a huge grain of salt. Your interpretation, however, misspm, is one I can live w/...........DebS

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    Posted by: farmer brown
    Date posted: Wed Apr 30 16:02:47 2008
    Message:
    I guess Jesus should be ex-communicated for that shameful Woman at the Well incident. (well documented in John, Chapter 4).

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    Posted by: JT
    Date posted: Wed Apr 30 15:45:43 2008
    Message:

    If it was a ''private agreement'' between Egan and Giuliani, then why is Egan going public? I realize their agreement may not have been entered into under ''the seal of the confessional,'' but shouldn't private agreements with one's priest remain private and any rebuke be private as well? .. IOW, because one is a ''public'' official allows the Church to make you a ''public'' example ???

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  • Couldn't agree more ... If Egan was being pressured about Giuliani's (public) acceptance of a Host, all Egan had to say was, ''No comment'' ... Ricky
  • I agree as well. ~~misspm
  • Yeah, you'd think Egan would be concerned about the appearance of revealing something done ''in private.'' And even if he said something to Rudy like, ''Now, watch it bud, 'cuz if you break the agreement, I'm gonna flog you in public!'' then that comes off sounding like some kind of spiritual blackmail. It just seems like the Cardinal cares less about the pastoral care of this poor pitiful politican and more about trumpeting the Church's own politial position (which I'm guessing most everyone is already aware of). - JT

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    Posted by: Ricky
    Date posted: Wed Apr 30 15:24:01 2008
    Message:

    My brother-in-law is always arguing with me about this.  He thinks that high-profile, pro-choice politicians (like Pelosi and Kennedy) and high-profile politicians with multiple marriage partners (like Rudy) should avoid taking communion.   I think it's hogwash.  I've served as a Eucharistic Minister on several different occasions, and I've never denied communion to someone who approached the altar.  It doesn't matter to me if they're pro-choice, racist, divorced and remarried, known adulterers, or whatever -- if they come down the aisle in my lane, I always give them communion.  I don't think it's up to the Eucharistic Minister to determine who's worthy (or unworthy) of receiving communion.   It just ain't my job.  If the communicant feels worthy of approaching the altar, I think it's my duty to serve him or her and smile warmly at them while holding up the Host and saying, "The Body of Christ."  Whether or not they elect to come up the aisle is entirely up to them (and their conscience), in my humble opinion.    I could never say to someone, "Sorry ... I think you're probably involved in a homosexual relationship ... and you never got an annulment from your wife ... and I heard that you voted pro-choice in the last election ... go sit back down, dammit.  I ain't serving you."  lol 

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  • Ricky in the Methodist church it is open to anyone who is ''in a right relationship with Christ'' and the person is the judge of that not the preacher or the person giving communion. eom CG
  • That's the thing - the Eucharist Ministers NEVER ask or question anyone's ''right'' to take the wafer. They just give it to the person in line. That's why I never understood why it was such a big whoop-dee-do about non-CAtholics or ''sinners'' who have not confessed taking Communion, unless they expect us to just use our conscience. And if that's the case, I don't believe I have ever sinned (don't believe in the concept of ''sin'' to begin with). I've done things that were wrong. I've had poor judgement more than once. I've made many mistakes. Sure. But I either learned from them, or otherwise redeemed myself and made peace with those wrong doings between myself, others and whatever - even the God I believe in (if I believe in God - we Agnostics are always confused, LOL). So as far as I'm concerned, I'm good to go! LOL. Plus, I was raised CAtholic - so the few times I am in a Catholic church, it just feels weird not tot take communion - even though I don't believe in the whole reason for doing it. Don't know why, it just does. Must be a force of habit from all of those days when I was growing up and my mother would take me to church or sunday school kicking and screaming.........DebS

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    Posted by: Midge
    Date posted: Wed Apr 30 12:42:54 2008
    Message:
    Sounds about right.

    Years ago, I decided to start using birth control, but I continued to attend Mass. When I would be off birth control and pregnant, I would take Communion, kidding myself into believing that maybe at some point the Church would become reasonable about it. Which of course, never happened.

    However, in 1968, shortly after my fourth child was born, I reach another milestone, with the Church. It was VietNam and the death of the third young man I had grown up with. So, I looked toward the Berrigan Brothers and never looked back. Over the years, I didn't always agree with them, but I was a free agent. With the Church, no................you're either with them, or you're not. I'm not. I believe God sees it all "from a distance" and we "nobodies" can attempt to play games, but for the Church to try it???? As my son says, the epitome of hypocrisy.

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  • That's exactly how I see it.........DebS

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    Posted by: DebS
    Date posted: Wed Apr 30 11:57:41 2008
    Message:

    Yeah, that whole communion thing and all of the rules are stupid. Even if I am in a Catholic church for a wedding or funeral, sometimes, I'll still take communion, just as my own little protest against the Church. Who are they to judge me, or anyone else, and deem us not fit to receive "the body of Christ," anyway? Besides, what I do in my own life, be it getting a divorce, having a abortion, "living in sin," or any of those other dumb rules that you're not supposed to break, is none of their business. Let 'em just try to regulate that!

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  • DebS, the Catholic Church doesn't care if you take communion.....'cause to a non catholic, that's just a sweet tasting wafer and wine. ;>)......................Kate
  • That's different than what we were told in Sunday school, such as ''it's blasphemy to take communion if you're not Catholic, blah, blah, blah.'' But ok, if that's the case then - all is well and good, I guess.........DebS
  • Now Now Kate....your statement that noncatholics think of the wafer and wine as just sweet tasting stuff is pure hogwash. I'm an Evanglical Lutheran and to us the host and wine are the literal body and blood of Christ just like Catholics. Other protestant demoninations aren't so literal but they treat the host and wine with great respect and believe it to be representative of the body and blood of Christ. Either way, Protestants are VERY respectful of Communion. Just because we had a break with the Church of Rome, Protestants are still Christians that respect Communion. Thank you...Elaine
  • Yeah, one thing's for sure - that wafer is DEFINITELY not sweet tasting, LOL!...........DebS
  • I'm a non-catholic as well and I CERTAINLY do not think of the communion as a good tasting wafer and wine. ~~misspm

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    Posted by: Mitch
    Date posted: Wed Apr 30 10:07:07 2008
    Message:

    Churches selectively enforce their own rules?

    Noooooooooooooooo!


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    Posted by: ingyandbert
    Date posted: Wed Apr 30 9:51:19 2008
    Message:
    Well, clearly the rules aren't being enforced.  As far as the annulment thing goes, it's not as difficult as you think.  I've known several people who have done it in order to marry or remarry in the Catholic Church.  You just have to follow the numerous steps.

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  • Ingy. I have family members who have left marriages because of really good reasons..................the annulment thing is very, very, very difficult if not impossible. Perhaps, it's the invasison of personal things that just turns the whole process off......................Kate
  • Like I said, I've known several people who have gotten annulments in the Catholic Church with no problems and fairly quickly even. And they were in different states, so it was not one church granting them. I dunno. ~i&b
  • Hi Kate, it's not impossible but it can be difficult. My sister in law got an annulment from her first husband (they were only married for 11 months) and it took her about a 1 1/2 years to get it finalized.
  • I agree with i&b. I have a friend who got an annulment. Yes, it took some time, 18-24 months; but she didn't have to jump through hoops nor swim the channel.........tomorrow
  • The people I knew all got their annulments in a matter of a few months. So I guess there is quite a range. ~i&b
  • My brother who lives in Indiana's ex-wife got one relatively quickly and easily a year or two ago. Mz Chris
  • I had one friend (abandoned by his spouse) who sailed through the process in record time, and another friend (abandoned by his spouse) who has been trying usuccessfully for years to get an annulment. Both of these are in the same state (Mississippi). I think the difference is which priest is assigned to that particular case. Some are pretty lenient, and want to get the annulment handled quickly. Some are very strict, and want to get lots of depositions, history reports, etc, and can stall the process for a long time ... Ricky
  • Ricky. I think you are absolutely right about getting the right priest. I have a friend who went to our retired priest and he lead her through the whole process and she did the paper work , etc. ...herself! Good for her.............Kate

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    Posted by: Peridot
    Date posted: Wed Apr 30 9:44:55 2008
    Message:
    Kate, I agree that, if a church is going to have rules like this, they ought to be consistent about it.  The rich and famous should follow the same standards as the little guy.  And if I felt my church's rules were ones I couldn't follow in good conscience, I think I'd change churches.

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  • Peridot, leaving my church would never enter my mind. I can follow the laws of the Church. I have no problem. These guys are breaking the rules . They have the problem.........................Kate
  • Yes, I get that. My point was, if these guys don't want to follow the rules they ought to go elsewhere rather than expect the church to grant them special concessions that aren't available to folks like you and me. - Peridot
  • See? That's exactly what I did! The Church told me that you can't do this or that; or such and such is a sin and you have to confess or be damned to hell for eternity or whatever. I don't believe in sins, hell or judgement - so I told the Catholic Church ''buh bye,'' and never looked back. My mother is still a practicing Catholic, but even she will tell me that she thinks a lot of what's in the Bible or what the Church preaches is not always a good thing. She's proudly pro-choice, very much for gay rights, divorced, and doesn't get into all of that ''act only a certain way, or else'' stuff. She just goes to Mass every week because she feels a certain peace, which I can understand. Mass can be very comforting. It's all of the rules and judgement that gets me. My sister also left the church - is thinking of becoming Episcopalian (like her husband) if anything at all. My father is the most recent one in my family to become a ''recovering Catholic'' (heard that on Bill Maher a few weeks ago, LOL). He had a very strict Catholic upbringing. But for some reason, wants his funeral in a Catholic church (?!) Whatever!..........DebS
  • Deb, my husband is from a family of lapsed Catholics and I've heard lots of similar stories from them. I recall a friend of mine in college who was raised Catholic but no longer attended church and swore he didn't even believe in God any more. And yet, he said every Sunday he felt guilty for not attending Mass, LOL. I hear some of my Catholic friends joke about Catholic guilt too. - Peridot
  • That Catholic guilt is wide-ranging. We were not raised Catholic (except for my oldest sister; she ended up leaving the Church over the priest abuse scandal and how that was covered up for decades) but Mother was and her whole family was very into the Catholic Church. I used to joke with my friends that I'm not Catholic, I just inherited the guilt. LOL! ~i&b
  • I like your joke. It's so true too. Have you ever heard Alannis Morrisette's song called ''Forgiven.'' It talks all about the guilt Catholic children are subjected to and accounts a woman who left the church as a result of that and other things. If I were slightly as talented as she is, I could have written the same song, LOL!.........DebS
  • ''Forgiven'' Lyrics inside. It's from her ''Jagged Little Pill'' album..........DebS

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    Posted by: Cassies grandma
    Date posted: Wed Apr 30 9:14:02 2008
    Message:
    Not being Catholic I really won't comment on whether he should take communion or not. But I do remember way back when Jackie O took communion after her divorce for Onassis. Or some such thing.

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  • CG, divorce isn't the sin, re-marriage is. At least that's what I've been told I guess the presumption is, people don't divorce unless they're intending to remarry...eom...Mitch
  • Mitch, the way I understand it the church does not recognize divorce. Therefore, the only way around that is to get an annulment which states the marriage was never valid to begin with. Any Catholics out there know if that's correct? ~i&b
  • You're partially right ,, Mitch. Divorce isn't the thing, it's the remarrying or NOT being celibate that breaks the rule of the Church..................Kate
  • Also, I know where ecclesiastical annulments are given, they have no status in civil courts. Civil divorces are permitted by the Church to facilitate the dissolution of property...eom...Mitch
  • CG, from what I recall, Jackie-O never divorced Onassis. (The Arlington Cemetery website confirms this.) While it appeared that she and Onassis were separated, he up and died. So, I don't know what restriction the Catholic Church would have put on her taking Holy Communion. (Did she do something else?) And once she became a widow, the marriage would have been over. - eom JT
  • I really don't remember the circumstances and may remember it totally wrong. But I do remember some sort of hub-bub about someone receiving communion who wasn't ''elegible. eom CG

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