Y&R Discussion Group

Topic: Michael Jackson vs. SC governor

Just in the interest of gaining some perspective here, could we talk?  As a disclaimer, neither of these men mean squat to me, dead or alive, so I have no ''side'' to defend, other than the side of fairness and impartiality which seemingly are always victims when it comes to fame and fortune.

On the one side, you have a governor who does not sing and dance and entertain us, is not rich and famous, who has an adulterous affair with a woman he seemingly loves rather than a prostitute, who is obviously guilty of dereliction of duty, who admits it and tells us more than we need to know and who then is pilloried in the media and on this board.

On the other side, we have someone who DOES sing, dance, entertain us, sell millions of albums, and is known for very strange behavior, to say the least.  However, strange behavior is not a crime but child molestation is.  The charges against him surfaced as early as 1993 and the case was settled out of court.  In 2003, he admits on a tv documentary that he has sleepovers with young boys and is arrested on child molestation charges.  Is there anyone on God's green earth who thinks a grown man has sleepovers with young boys and it is all just innocent?  If so, that person's naivete verges on mental deficiency.  But because this person is rich, famous, entertaining, he is given a pass on his ''sins'', which in my eyes are far worse than anything the above much-criticized governor did.  Destroying the innocence of a child, or in this case, children, is unforgivable.  I believe any poster on this board would say the same, so I don't get this disconnect here.  I do not wish any pedophile to ''rest in peace'', no matter how rich and famous they are.

One issue has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

More to the point, most people who commented about Michael Jackson were praising his TALENT, not praising his behavior.

There's no way around it--he was a kind of genius. Most geniuses are NOT perfect people. Some are horrible creeps. Some are criminals. That doesn't negate their talent, and MJ WAS a once-in-a-lifetime kind of talent, and that is why his passing is getting so much attention.

And as Ricky pointed out, many of us are old enough to remember the endearing little boy who now seems like a total disconnect from the incredibly strange man-boy he became in his later years.

He was vilified when the scandals and trials happened, he didn't get a free pass, and he deserved it. Maybe he deserved more. We really don't know that for sure.

As for your declaration that only parents understand this issue, I would point out that the children who slept in the bed with Michael Jackson were permitted to do so BY THEIR PARENTS.

Something I would have fought tooth and nail if my sister had wanted to let my nephew do it.

You don't have a corner on understanding, empathy or caring about children's well-being just because you're a parent.

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Well said, dbrv. (Edward)

You are certainly right that these children were pimped out, as it were, by their parents for the basest of reasons. And I did not make a ''declaration'' that only parents could understand. Here is what I said to DebS in explanation of what you are referring to: '' I also did not mean that your point was invalid because you didn't have children. I do realize, though, that before I had a child there was no way in the world that I could imagine how horrifying the thought of child molestation was. Forgive me for judging you by my own failing standard.'' ~ Duffy

dbrv, check out Wendy B's post on DOOL : ''I'm having trouble understanding the outpouring of sympathy''. I am not the only one who feels this way. ~ Duffy

Declaration, explanation, potato, potatah. You do not need to be a parent to imagine the horror of child molestation, and frankly, I'm a little shocked you say you could only imagine it after you became a parent. Someone else posted something similar to what you posted . . . this matters why, exactly? Anyone can find someone who agrees with them. After all, LOTS of people posted similar things to what I posted about Sanford, and you're not taking that as proof that I'm right and you're not. - dbrv

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Posted by: CleoJ
Date posted: Fri Jun 26 16:51:05 2009
Message:

On Facebook, there is a poll circulating about which Michael Jackson do you prefer and it breaks hit down into childhood Michael, Thriller Michael, Tabloid Michael, etc. I point this out because almost everyone who is grieving MJ today is grieving childhood and Thriller Michael. For most of us, those personas are completely separate from Tabloid Michael etc. It might seem odd but it is true.

As for him being a pedophile, I am not sure. I think most feel that way. No one has ever defended him sleeping in the bed with young boys and he has been the object of much well-deserved derision for the past decade or so. I'm gathering you think his fame and money has led many of us to forgive criminal behavior. It hasn't; we just don't know. We know something was very, very wrong but was he truly molesting young boys? I am not prepared to try him on this message board although I have always found it odd that his only two accusers seemed to have a monetary motivation for his accusations versus seeking justice. They never seemed that injured. I don't know what really happened; his life was extraordinarily bizarre and he lived a lifestyle that is beyond my comprehension.

 

In the coming decades, there will be a multitude of accusations, tell-alls, unauthorized biographies, lawsuits and conspiracy theories. If you are concerned that MJ will be canonized, don't be.

 

As for what this has to do with Governor Sanford???????? That portion of your rant makes NO sense whatsoever.

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Very well said!!! I agree 100%.

If you had read what I said, the thing it has to do with the governor is the comparison of the reactions of some media and posters to adultery and child molestation. The gov. was held up to much ridicule and criticism; MJ was called an ''icon'' and mourned. The adulterer and the child molester, two different reactions, and the rich and famous get a pass, even in such egregious circumstances. He's famous, he's got money, aw, what the heLL, he can sing, dance and entertain us, let's just ignore those kids. ~ Duffy

Of course you conveniently overlook the fact that for much of his adult life, MJ was held up to scorn and ridicule. So was Farrah Fawcett, for that matter. But their dead now, and people are remembering the positive things they did. Maybe if Sanford dropped dead we'd all have something positive to say about him, too. I can't think of anything off-hand, but you never know. - dbrv

Well, if you can find all these positive things about a child molester, I congratulate you! This is the worst kind of travesty, to destroy the innocence of a child, and all the ''we don't know for sure''s are just to keep from facing that fact. ~ Duffy

Ya know Duffy, you're starting to tick me off. I find child molestation just as abhorrent as you do. I do not appreciate your accusations and I do not see this situation as you do, deal with it...........CleoJ

LOL! I would have expected nothing less of you, CleoJ! ~ Duffy

Duffy, I didn't realize that you had served as a juror in the case and had heard all the evidence. I didn't have that opportunity. I'm just a layman. So forgive me for uttering my little ''I don't know for sure'' instead of rising up and haughtily condeming him, as you're able to do, being armed as you are with information that wasn't made available to the public ... Ricky

Ricky, if your own common sense doesn't tell you that a grown man doesn't take young boys into bed for innocent purposes, over a period of years starting in 1993, then I hope you don't have children. If you did, they might very well be subject to a molester since you seem to need video or audio proof which is hardly ever available in these cases. There was recently a woman in OK who invited a man into her house to live and let him sleep with her children. I suppose she was as gullible as some MJ fans seem to be. Unfortunately, even though the medical exam proved the children had been raped and sodomized, since there was no PROOF, the molester got only a year in jail. I didn't have to be on the jury and privy to anything to know he was guilty though you probably want to give him the benefit of the doubt. ~ Duffy

Well Duffy if you expected that then you will surely expect this: PI$$ off ..................CleoJ

Duffy, judging and condeming people is a very difficult trait to purge from the psyche --- I know, because I struggled with it for many years before I was able to rid myself of it. I don't wanna go back in time to that low of a level of spirituality. Like everyone else in the world who possesses that tendency to pre-judge, I discovered that it's impossible to grow in compassion and spirituality until I ridded myself of it completely. This is why Jesus went out of his way to point out the dangers of such judgment, realizing as he did that it completely paralyzes our spiritual growth. It ain't something I want to go back to. I'll just wait for the truth to manifest itself. If the truth is unpleasant, I'll face it then rather than wallow in something prurient that may not even exist. You may have a different outlook and approach to life, and that's fine ... Ricky

Ricky I admire your response tremendously. I understand the feelings some people have towards MJ, that is their right but it's been a long 24 hours and I do not have a lot of patience for this type of foolishness Duffy is posting. Back to ''What Not to Wear''.......CleoJ

Yes ma'am, I'm moving out of here, too, and thanks for the kind words. Have a good weekend! I hope it's cooler in the ATL than it is over here in the 'Sip ... Ricky

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Posted by: Donna7888
Date posted: Fri Jun 26 13:17:30 2009
Message:
Duffy, your post is excellent.  Very well thought out and written - and I wholeheartedly agree with you one hundred percent.

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Thanks, Donna! ~ Duffy

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Posted by: Roxie
Date posted: Fri Jun 26 13:00:24 2009
Message:
Very good post, Duffy, and I agree. It makes you wonder, doesn't it!

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Thank you, Roxie! ~ Duffy

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Posted by: Ricky
Date posted: Fri Jun 26 12:42:04 2009
Message:

The sleepovers were absolute lunacy --- no question about that.   But never having met Michael Jackson personally, I wouldn't begin to guess what happened in the bed at Neverland.  He might have been buggering little boys, or he might he might have been innocently using them as Living Teddy Bears.   There's simply no telling.   When it came to little boys, Michael Jackson gave the public impression of being completely insane.   Maybe he really was insane in that regard, or maybe he merely gave that impression as part of his public personae.  I have no idea. 

What I do know is that in the coming weeks and months, there will undoubtedly be a barrage of young men who pop into the spotlight and claim some form of molestation when they were minors, with Jackson no longer personally around to defend himself and hand-select a high-powered attorney to shoot down the testimonies of the alleged victims.   Some of the young men might have valid claims; others might simply lie in order to achieve their fifteen minutes of fame and a quick grab at some cash (if there's any cash available). 

The sad part is that Michael Jackson's parents and siblings will have to suffer through these ordeals periodically over the next several months (or years) while still grieving the loss of their son and brother. 

My favorite writer is Tennessee Williams.  He was a brilliant talent from the late 1930s until the early 1960s, and then he was a weird old lunatic from 1963 until his death in 1983.   I remember Williams fondly, not for the nuttiness and drug abuse of his later years, but in appreciation of the talent he displayed in his earlier years.   He was a genius, and I don't think America has ever produced another writer of his calibre. 

When I think of Michael Jackson, I don't think of that strange cartoon character in the 1990s and 2000s who hosted sleepovers at his ranch, or who used morbid cosmetic surgery to blur the image of his original gender and race.  I think of the sweet, talented boy who entertained me in my teenage years.    And I don't see anything wrong with praising him for what he did accomplish in his early years.   There will be plenty of time later for the media and the historians to sort through the strange wasteland of his declining years, and determine what crimes he might (or might not) have been guilty of. 

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Ricky, I know you may not know the answer to this BUT....WHY would someone so famous, invite boys to come over and sleep in his bedroom with him? Was Michael that stupid that he didn't realize people would talk about it and make something over it that may or may not be true? That's my point - why do it in the first place? He's so famous. He should have known people would talk about having little boys over his house to sleep in his bedroom. That's dispicable in my eyes.

Well, I tried to address that in my first paragraph. He might've been insane enough (or at least detatched enough from reality) to think that was ''normal'' behavior, which it obviously ain't. Or he might've been a serial child molestor who tried to cloak his actions in all that ''Peter Pan'' garbage. I just don't know. I was never there. None of us were there. All we know is what he presented to us in his bizarre public image --- and that really doesn't tell us anything at all, because we all know that public images are usually just smoke and mirrors designed by publicists who are paid a salary to muddy the waters and distort reality ... Ricky

Ricky, as I have stated in many of my replies to your posts (except the political ones, lol), ''I couldn't have said it better''. We will never know for sure what happened, but he was not convicted, and because, initially, it took a huge settlement to allay the first ''victim's'' emotional trauma'', we will not know if he was a child molestor, or simply a victim himself, of the callous sharks in this world that go after people with deep pockets. And because of Jackson's seeming naietivity, and bad judgement with regard to those sleepovers, we will never know the truth. Even if it is the truth. We still will never know for sure........................DianeR

''We'll never know for sure''? If you mean we will never have a video of it (though I suppose that could surface) probably not. Perhaps you could ask yourself, ''would I let MY son sleep over with MJ'', and this was not once but many times. Or suppose your husband, if you have one, suddenly started wanting to sleep with young boys just 'cause, by golly, it is SO much fun! Would you decide he was innocent until you had a video of him that proved otherwise? I doubt it. If you love children, there are many activities that you can pursue with them other than taking them to your bed. ~ Duffy

A few years ago, right around the time of the last trial for molestation, Donald Trump was defending Michael Jackson saying he was a great guy and a good friend and that he has been in touch with him recently. The interviewer asked if he would ever let his son stay overnight with MJ, and Trump said something like, ''Hell, no!'' That about says it all. - Zoe

Sure does. I know that I wouldn't have let anyone in my family sleep with him in a million years. But I would never dream of jumping to conclusions about his guilt in such a serious crime, based only upon what I've seen and heard in the media. To paraphrase Duffy's original post, I believe that anyone who judges the innocence or guilt of a celebrity based only on that celebrity's public personality exhibits a naivete that ''verges on mental deficiency'' ... Ricky

Duffy, ''Wouldl I lelt my son attend a sleepover at Neverland Ranch, where there was supposed to be many other children?'' Maybe so. But, certainly not in the same bed!! But, the point I am trying to make is that yes, there were too many holes in this case, and one's career and reputation shouldn't be ruined by people who may have only had dollar signs on their minds. I think the jury had it right. ''Beyond a reasonable doubt''. And yes, I do think that Jackson felt he was a child, himself. I think he identified with those children. Yes, it is not normal. But, I still see no proof that any of them were molested, and I did follow the case back then......................DianeR

Ricky, I was ''judging'' his guilt, not on his public persona, but on his very own admission that he had boys sleeping in his bed! If you want to believe that was all innocent, child-like fun, do be my guest. ;-) ~ Duffy

Oh, it wouldn't surprise me at all to discover that he was porking their brains out. Nor would it surprise me to discover that he was lying up their in his eyeliner patting their heads and telling them about Princess Tiger Lily. I just wouldn't wanna hazard a guess ... Ricky

Bravo on a great post, Ricky. Only God now knows what the sleepovers, etc were all about. ......and wouldn't have allowed my child to sleepover with MJ, but .....I wouldn't have allowed him to sleepover with ANY adult and only his pals who I knew their homes and parents........ Creeps will come out of the woodwork for a handful of $$$. I hope the Jackson Family form a circle and protect eachother ...and Michael. ...Kate

Cheers Ricky..............CleoJ

Same here. Listening to his own words about how loving it is to have boys sleep in his bed, is sick and irresponsible at best. That's the only thing I am basing my observations on. He actually defended this behavior, charging others with 'dirty minds'. - Zoe

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Posted by: Zoe
Date posted: Fri Jun 26 12:09:31 2009
Message:
Thanks for the rational, fair, well-thought-out post.  You are right on all counts.

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Thank YOU, Zoe, for your response! ~ Duffy

ITA, BessBeau *

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Posted by: farmer brown
Date posted: Fri Jun 26 12:05:39 2009
Message:
I would hardly call the absolute barrage of attention Michael Jackson received during his arrest and trial -- WHACKO JACKO ring a bell? -- as being given a pass. That's to say nothing of his years of negative attention for other strange behavior.

The difference is the man died unexpectedly less than 24 hours ago AND he had been out of the spotlight for the past few years. Few people outside of South Carolina and hard-core politicos had heard of Gov. Sanford until this week.

You could compare apples and oranges and have two closer things than trying to extrapolate meanings in the coverage and reactions to these two completely different news events.

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Actually, apples and oranges are quite similar, they are both fruits, from the same family, you might say. That said, people praising a child molester for anything whatsoever will always get my back up. And actually some of the same people who, two days ago, thought adultery and dereliction of duty was so horrible. The double standard was so obvious, I wanted to discuss it. Thank you for your input. ~Duffy

Well, I remember plenty of outrage and negativity directed Michael Jackson's way over the years. I don't know where you were when it was going on, but it was going on aplenty. Like I said, the difference is it's been quite a few years now, he's been relatively out of the spotlight and the governor's scandal is fresh, and the man is alive. There's your difference. farmer

Yet, with all of the outrage, he was able to pay his way out of every scandal. I think that is the point here. - Zoe

Plenty of lawsuits are settled by innocent people.....just to stop the pain.....and remember that the accusers have contingency lawyers who will hang on like a dog on a bone....so it's better to cut the loss and settle......Kate

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Posted by: Glitter
Date posted: Fri Jun 26 11:09:20 2009
Message:

Michael Jackson had his trail.. and was acquited .. it's time to stop crucifying this man..it's done, it's over he's dead!

I knew this was going to be brought up over and over again.. beating a dead horse.  Anyone can accuse someone of abuse..thing is show me the facts, hard copy, video tape.. audio tape. I find this interesting.. someone else accused him of abusing a child..lied about having a video tape.. he sued them for slander and WON! They LIED! just like all the rest.. this was about MONEY! When he won this case.. it was printed on the back pages of  the news papers. They talked about this on the E channel gosip show.

It's a proven fact.. kids lie about abuse all the time.. parents lie about abuse to get even with each other.. teenagers have been caught lying about sexual abuse  to get even when parents get divorce or they cant get  their way.

I never believed those allagations against Michael because it was too easy, it's the oldest trick in the book.  I know what it's like when someone believes a horrible lie. I was a victim of a girls' lie  that the whole town believed.. she started a rumor that I had a sex change opperation  and they believe her because she was white! Even the police belived this w!ore!  She was the kind of bitch that would cry "rape" in the old days when lynchings was legal.. I could've been a victim of a horrible hate crime because of this bitch.. I never knew this girl.. we used to go to the same collage club to watch local rock bands play.. I knew all  the bands in the area. This was pure racist hate.

No! I will never believe this old tired s!it about Michael either.. it's the same hate here.

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Glitter, I refer you to my statement above: '' Is there anyone on God's green earth who thinks a grown man has sleepovers with young boys and it is all just innocent? If so, that person's naivete verges on mental deficiency.'' MJ admitted to the sleepovers and there really is only one interpretation to be made of that. ~ Duffy

Duffy, ICAM ! a grown man having children come to his house for a sleepover, admitting that they were in his bed...come on...that's very telling of MJ.**

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Posted by: DebS
Date posted: Fri Jun 26 11:04:28 2009
Message:

Duffy, I have been one of MJ's biggest critics over the past 15/20 years or so. But I think the main difference here is that MJ is dead and that SC governor is not.

I think many people, like myself, have a policy where no matter how they feel about someone, they at least refrain from speaking ill of them immediately after they have died. Let his family mourn. LEt his fans mourn. Let the funeral take place. And then let the media get all of the excessive coverage (which is drowning out the coverage of Farrah Fawcett) out of their systems.....

So I'm just remembeing the good things about him. He was an amazing performer, regardless of how much I tried to resist that fact. And he was electrifying on stage. His music was not so bad either (most of it, anyway).

Seriously, give it a few more weeks, you'll hear all kinds of things coming out about MJ - probably more things than ever came out before - because he's now dead and people will be more willing to come forward.

And I too, will resume my criticism of the man. But now is not the time.

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Well said, Deb. //SqueezeMe

DebS, I understand what you are saying but I also know that you don't have children. As a parent, the worst thing to contemplate is your child being sexually abused. It just disturbs me to see everybody praising someone who would do such a thing. ~Duffy

You asked for opinions, fine. But Duffy, I think you're way out of line to bring up DebS not being a parent, and your being one, as somehow invalidating her opinion. You know, those of us who are childless and single sometimes get a little tired of that being rubbed in our faces. Stick to the discussion points you initially raised. farmer

I didn't realize that being childless was considered an insult! Live and learn. I apologize, Deb, if you considered that I insulted you by saying you didn't have children. Actually, I feel that more people should make that decision. I also did not mean that your point was invalid because you didn't have children. I do realize, though, that before I had a child there was no way in the world that I could imagine how horrifying the thought of child molestation was. Forgive me for judging you by my own failing standard. ~ Duffy

Thanks, Farmer. The fact that I don't have, or even want children, does not mean that I don't feel for those who have been victims of child molestation. That's just absurd. When MJ was accused/arrested for child molestation, I was probably one of those screaming the loudest for justice, trust me. Adn I was just as PISSED when he bought off his first victim and then was acquitted the second time. But, as farmer pointed out, I am NOT going to bring that up less than 24 hours after his death, out of respect for his family, fans and even his own memory. I never wish death on anyone. Death itself deserves respect - even if I don't like the person who died. When what's his name...Jerry Falwell died - man I HATED that guy. But I kept silent while many other people were calling him all sorts of awful names immediately after his death. I even came on MD and managed to post a simple, ''my condolences to his family'' response to the post that was on here. Everything else I thougth of the man was negative and nasty, but out of respect for the fact that he had just DIED - I kept quiet anyway. There's a time and a place. Show some respect........DebS

Being childless is not an insult. Having it pointed out in a discussion like this is. For all I know, DebS wasn't even insulted. I was insulted just reading the reply. But there are a lot of childless women who don't appreciate that fact being thrown into their faces. Please show tact, even if DebS isn't among them. farmer

Duffy, we must have been posting at the same time. I accept your apology. But let me tell you, as someone with a 2 1/2 year old niece and a 3 month old nephew - child molestation is just as horriying to me as it is to you or anyone else. Actually, it was even before my niece and nephew were even born.......DebS

Farmer, I was offended. I was also surprised that someoen like Duffy woudl post such a thing. But as I have already said, I accept her apology......DebS

Duffy, please forgive me for belaboring the point, but DebS is a loving aunt. Those of us who are childless have brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, cousins and godchildren. We may not be parents, but most of us love a child somewhere. Most of us know someone who has been affected by child abuse. And I can assure you that we are every bit as horrified by it as you are. Every bit. I'm not mad or trying to start a fight, I just want you to understand. //SqueezeMe

Since you were insulted, farmer, by my reply to another poster, then I certainly must have touched a nerve. I do believe, though, that your rough order to ''stick to your point'' and ''show tact'' could have been phrased a little more tactfully, too. ~ Duffy

Thank you, DebS and SqueezeMe, for your courtesy. I know how much Deb loves her niece; I would never denigrate that. What I found hard to believe was that people could actually praise this person, no matter how entertaining he was. I certainly didn't mean any offense to Deb or SqueezeMe and I hope you both know that. It is a subject I feel very strongly about. ~ Duffy

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, I'm not praising him. I'm just refraining from speaking negatively about him...for now........DebS

A person's death does not erase the facts of their lives. He was a human being and his family will mourn his loss. I have to say that I finally feel there is hope for his children to get some help and have a somewhat normal life. I just can't get past the fact that the man felt, and has clearly stated, that bringing children into his bed was not only acceptable, but a 'loving' thing to do with children. This doesn't erase the fact that he was an amazing talent, but something was very wrong with him. We just don't want to believe that such a talented guy could be a pedophile. Appreciating his talent doesn't mean we support a suspected pedophile, but let's not pretend he was a healthy, normal man. I hope his children will get into therapy and find peace after their father's passing. As for Sanford, his poltitcal career is the least of his worries. He needs to focus on his personal issues, make restitution for the inappropriate actions as governor, and let someone else run SC. -Zoe

Understood, Duffy. //SM

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Posted by: topcat
Date posted: Fri Jun 26 10:43:51 2009
Message:
Micheal did not know where in the world he fit in. In the end he was and will always be remembered for his greatness and his badness. No one can really know what the truth was about his problems if they really existed with children. Was he charged with molestation for money gain by those who wanted to be rich and figured it was a way to get that after they allowed their children to stay at the home of someone they wanted to use to that end. We really don't know the answers. We can only hope those involved will find peace at last. If it really never happened as claimed...hopefully they will come forward and say so. I hope it never really happened but I don't know.

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No doubt money played a part in the parents decisions to allow their children into such a situation. However, MJ admitted to sleeping in the same bed, etc. and I just don't think there can be any other interpretation put on that. ~ Duffy

It is the central issue in the case and still it was ignored. We don't know why the family took the money. They could have had death threats, they may have been told that the trial would drag on for years and they may have decided to just accept the money. They also could have been exploiting their child's molestation. We don't know. Maybe now we will.

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Posted by: Elaine
Date posted: Fri Jun 26 10:40:35 2009
Message:
As the Bible tells us, we should hate the sin but love and forgive the sinner.  We don't know the 'whole story' on the child molestation charges.  As a fellow human being of MJ, I only wish him God's mercy because we are all sinners in our own way. 

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I agree with you in principle, Elaine, but to me the one unforgivable sin is to destroy the innocence of a child. I can't get around that one. ~ Duffy

If he had been convicted of that I would also agree but since he was not and I don't know anything more about it then anyone posting here - I say RIP and will continue to be grateful for the music and the memories-Sideout

What interpretation do you put on MJ's admitted ''sleepovers'' with young boys? This was not in dispute in court. And, if you think justice is the same for the rich and famous, you are indeed naive. ~ Duffy

VERY true, Duffy !**

We have seen this over and over. When Kobe B was accused of rape, the victim received death threats from Lakers fans. When OJ was still a 'person of interest' in the murder of Nicole and Ron Goldman, I heard one of the detectives say, when asked if OJ did it, 'I hope not' and numerous others said 'he couldn't have'. None of us really knows what goes on in a person's heart. They are all just human beings. Michael, Kobe and OJ were all found to be innocent, but I don't believe that means that all of them actually are. When it looks like a duck, walks like a duck...it's a duck!

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